For a guy who has witnessed plenty of supernatural works of God in his life, seeing Jesus in a vision wasn’t all that strange. And yet Banning Liebscher still can’t shake what came into his mind’s eye on a cool Canadian night last April.
It was the first night of a youth conference in Toronto to which Liebscher had been invited as a guest speaker. Before ever walking onstage, he had joined the hundreds of students gathered for a time of praise and worship. With his hands lifted and spirit lost in adoration, he saw the Lord enter the room and begin walking among the crowd. In His hand was a massive paintbrush dripping with red paint. As He located various young people, He would paint a large letter R upon their bodies. Liebscher immediately asked the Lord what He was doing.
“I’m marking revivalists tonight,” was the answer he heard.
Sans the red paint or dramatic vision, that’s exactly what Liebscher has been doing for the last 14 years at Bethel Church in Redding, Calif., and now around the world. The 33-year-old pastor leads Jesus Culture, which began as a single conference for Bethel’s youth group and has since evolved into a multifaceted, global initiative for teens and young adults.
Among students, Jesus Culture is best known for its soul-searing music, as captured on such recordings as Your Love Never Fails, Everything and We Cry Out. Within worship circles, it’s renowned for produced rising leaders such as Kim Walker, Chris Quilala and Melissa How. And around youth pastors, it’s become a Spirit-flammable summer conference that ignites entire youth groups to change their churches and communities through radical ministry.
But for Liebscher and his team, Jesus Culture is simply the result of following a mandate given years before in preparation for a wave of revival among a younger generation.
“We believe there’s a new breed of revivalists emerging in the earth today because of what God intends to do in nations and cities around the earth,” he says with complete certainty. “The mandate the Lord gave us was to activate, mobilize, equip and resource this new breed. He made it very specific to us that He’s releasing healing revivalists again.”
It’s that last part—the healing and supernatural works—that distinguishes Jesus Culture from being just another hyped-up youth conference. Following suit with what’s been established under Bethel’s senior pastor, Bill Johnson, Jesus Culture makes a point to provide teens with hands-on training opportunities to minister the supernatural power of God. During every conference, students spend hours each day venturing out in groups to the modern-day courtyards of America—malls, grocery stores, restaurants, etc. Their goal is simple: Learn how to follow the Holy Spirit’s directive, step out in faith and watch Him do the miraculous.
It’s not coincidental that the results—as published online by hundreds, if not thousands, of transformed teens—look similar to those of the conference’s namesake done 2,000 years ago. Typically shy eighth-graders declaring prophetic, life-changing words over complete strangers in a mall. High schoolers ministering instant healing to fellow diners in a Taco Bell. College students leading retirees to the Lord for the first time.
“You have to let your light shine,” Liebscher tells these young “radical revivalists.” “This whole thing is about activating young people to let their lights shine. The way that they let it shine is through works—and that’s not random acts of kindness, although we believe in that. It’s not just good social things that we do; it’s demonstrations of power. It’s the supernatural invading. And when I allow the supernatural to be demonstrated in my life in front of men, then the Lord receives glory.”
Jesus Culture obviously isn’t the first youth group to emphasize a “signs and wonders” lifestyle. Yet Liebscher and his team have created a remarkable culture of balance in which biblical grounding and spiritual discipline walk hand-in-hand with relevant, radical power. The end goal isn’t bigger numbers, better worship bands or even more healings; it’s to have young people so passionate for Jesus they can’t help but walk in supernatural power that radically affects every area of culture.
“There’s an urgency of the hour right now,” Liebscher says. “What I’m seeing now more than I’ve seen in my 14 years of experience is a level of consecration to the Lord that’s unbelievable, where kids are really saying, ‘I’m setting myself apart for the cause of Christ and for His desires fully. And this decision I’m making right now will bear fruit when I’m 80.’ ... Some of what we’re doing, I believe it’s not really immediate impact. I don’t think we’ll see the fruit until 20 or 30 years from now.”That may be. But in the meantime, Liebscher remains content to continue marking a generation that is turned wholeheartedly to God.
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord oneday is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day (2 Peter 3:8).
So many people were being ushered into His presence during that season in our church. So many at that time were caught up into heaven, into that completeness. We began to hear the heartbeat of heaven. This depth of His presence was new for many. What we learned was that we were moving into true intercession. There was a mixture of love, joy and extreme heartbreak. This heartbreak that we would feel was from the extreme intense love that our Father had for His children all over the world. Like in the story of the prodigal son, we felt the Father missing them and longing for them to come back to Him and His love. Out of that longing , at the same time. We become, if I can redeem this word, "addicted" to His glorious presence.
Calling Forth His Desires
In these times I often "see" faces, places, and situations in my mind's eye. I often feel like God is showing me things that I need to think about and "brood over" in the way that a mother hen broods over her eggs. Genesis 1:1 says, "Earth was a soup of nothingness, a bottomless emptiness, an inky blackness. God's Spirit brooded like a bird above the watery abyss" (The Message Bible). To be honest, most of the time when I am in this place, I just agree. I agree with the plans that God already has for people's lives, for regions, and for the earth. "Yes God." "Do that God." "Go there, Father." "That's amazing, Lord Jesus." When I pray this way, I feel as though I am praying from His heart. It is almost as though I am calling forth the very desires that are already in the heart of God, as though I am calling them into existence.
In those times, I feel as though I become the very "womb of God." "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water'" (John 7:38). The words innermost being come from the word, koilia, which means "womb." We are the womb of God. In our intercessions, we are creating and birthing the things of heaven. We carry the life of the kingdom within us. It will flow out of us in our intercessions.
No Agendas Required
When any of us go into God's presence, when we tap into the realm of heaven, we position ourselves to receive great breakthrough. One of the things that we need to be careful about is not going before God with our own agendas. Sometimes I think we go before God and we already have an idea of what we want God to do, so we close ourselves off from receiving and partnering with God and what He may want to do in the moment. In fact, God may want to do something completely different. It is almost like we say, "Here God, here is my idea, now do it my way." When we do that, we handcuff God. We are no longer partnering with Him.
Often, when people ask me to pray for them, they come with an agenda-or an idea-of what they want to ask God to do. When I am praying for people and I ask them what they need prayer for, sometimes their requests are not what is on God's agenda for the moment. We need to learn how to be sensitive and move with the Holy Spirit. The same with intercession; we need to listen to the heartbeat of God and not always present our stuff to Him. It's not that our agendas are wrong or right and there are times for that. But when I just want to spend time with God and feel his presence, I don't bring any agenda.
I remember one time while I was praying, a man's face came before me. He was an Asian man. When I saw his face, I began agreeing with God on behalf of this man. I still to this day do not know anything about this man nor do I understand what I was praying about concerning him. You never know. It could have been an intervention prayer, a prayer that saved that man's life. Or, it could have been that I was praying for a whole people group. Some things will not be known this side of eternity. It is important that we learn to respond to His leading- even when there will be no immediate gratification from seeing an answer in the natural.
Another time I woke up praying for one of our sons, Brian. I prayed for his safety. Right after I prayed, we got a call from him in the middle of the night telling us that he was driving home from a trip down south. He had fallen asleep at the wheel while driving and had run off the road. He called to tell us that he was OK. I was so thankful that I had been woken up to pray.
Intercession is just the fruit of being with Him. It was birthed in my own heart because of spending time with Him. I go into His presence to love Him, to experience "spirit-to-spirit"-His Spirit with my spirit. When I experienced this for the first time, I remember just being with Him and feeling our hearts connecting. It felt like my heart was picking up the same heartbeat as His-His heart "liquid love." His heart was broken for humanity. Our two hearts are intertwined. When you feel that, when you see His heart broken and His amazing love, your only response can be to pray with burning passion-compassion for a lost generation.
Whatever God has promised gets stamped with the Yes of Jesus. In him, this is what we preach and pray, the great Amen, God's Yes and our Yes together, gloriously evident (2 Corinthians 1:20 The Message Bible).
The amazing thing to me is that God is waiting for us to enter into Him. He is longing for us to see His world, to see into that glorious realm of His kingdom. He is wanting us to partner with Him for heavenly breakthrough.
God Likes Our Ideas
God's yes together with our yes are what brings about breakthrough in prayer. I'm continually amazed that God would choose to partner with us. But, at the same time, it makes all the sense in the world that He would want us to join with Him in making history. We are, after all, His children. He is a great and all- powerful God and also a loving and caring Father who, I believe, wants to be involved in our lives. Incredibly, He also wants us to be involved in His kingdom. He wants us to help build His kingdom here on earth. I believe that God likes my ideas. Some of the prophetic acts that we do come from the Lord, but I think that some of the things we do are good ideas that the Father says, "Yeah, that's good."
I am convinced that God likes my ideas. So, when I pray, I pray from a place of security. It is like I go into prayer believing that God is on my side. Let me give you an example. We took a team to Croatia in 2007. It was one of the most amazing prayer trips I've ever been on. One of the places that we planned on going to was a concentration camp outside of Zagreb, the capital of Croatia. During World War II many Jews, Serbs, Gypsies, anyone who was not a Croat, were put to death. It was pretty brutal. We had joined with our missionary friends and a national pastor and his wife to go there and pray. How do you pray for such a huge, devastating thing? I had been praying, pondering how we could make a difference and help bring healing to a land of much bloodshed. The idea came to get a bottle of wine and have it poured out on the land. We had been praying in one of the towns that morning and I had honestly wondered if this wine thing was what we were to do. I mentioned to some of the group that we needed to get a bottle of wine before we left for the concentration camp but purposely dismissed it still thinking that it might not be the right thing to do. One of the gals on the team spoke up and said, "Are we going to get the wine before we go to the camp?" "OK. Let's get it," I said.
I hadn't told the national pastors what we were going to do yet. You see, I felt like the pastor and his wife were to pour the wine out on the ground as a prophetic sign of reconciliation prayer. Srecko, the national pastor, is Croatian and his wife, Inas, is Serbian. If you don't know, those were two of the many ethnic groups involved not only in World War II but also in the Bosnian War of the early 1990s. So I explained to this wonderful pastor and his wife the idea of pouring out the wine on the ground, and then as we prayed together believing that God would cover the bloodshed over the land with His blood. They held the bottle together and poured. They had never done anything like this before, but were so gracious. While they poured the wine out, I was watching their 6-year-old son playing. He was so carefree and happy. His bloodline represented two warring ethnic groups. His generation would no longer have the pain of war. There would be healing.
Was this my idea or the Holy Spirit's idea? I don't know. It just felt really right. I feel like our lives can be so intertwined with God's that our thoughts, feelings and even what we do are melted together with His. When God made us just the way we are, He liked what He made. He likes everything about us. I believe He enjoys our ideas, and we in turn like His ideas. God chooses us. He chose David.
It says that God chose David and it was in David's heart to build a house for the Lord. God told David in verse 18, "David, you did well that it was in your heart." Wow! That is our God. God chose a man who He knew would say, "Yes!" God said, "yes" to David, and everything else is history. God's yes to you and your yes to Him are all that is needed.
When our daughter Leah was expecting her first baby, she asked with permission from her husband if I would be the coach for her. I had had three children by natural birth, and she told me, "You're the pro, Mom." It was an honor for me. I told my husband afterwards that it was the most amazing experience and the hardest work I've done since I had my own kids.
God is always breaking into our natural world and showing us the spirit realm. That's what happened in this birthing experience with our daughter. In a natural birth you can invite friends and family into the labor room. Our daughter is a very social being and loved having those friends and family visit up until the time of the birth. As you may know, towards the end of the labor there is a time that is the most intense. It takes all of your concentration just to make it through the contraction. We were at that place. Whenever a contraction would start, we would release peace over Leah, and then the focus was all on her part to listen to my instructions. One of our friends came into the room at one of those moments and began talking, not really paying attention to the intensity of what was going on. Leah seemed to be OK with it. After the delivery, I asked her about the distraction in the room. She told me that she really didn't notice because she was so focused on my voice and what I was telling her to do. As she told me that, I had a revelation of intercession. When God gives us strategies to pray-you know, the ones that we burn with-we can become so focused on His voice that we don't become distracted. Nothing can take us away from his voice. There were times during her delivery that we would lock eyes as well. It was how she got through the intense times. She drew strength from looking into my eyes. There was an intensity in my eyes or determination that she picked up on and could keep going.
There are times in our lives when we must stay closer, locking onto His words and His vision. God gives us prayer strategies, and we look to Him for focus and understanding on how to pray with results. Then the birthing will come.
By the way, the baby that was born that day to our son-in-law and daughter was named him Judah (Hebrew for "praise"). The result of our steadfast focus can only be praise for Him.
When I pray from the heart of God, I become so lost in the presence of God that it feels like the only thing I am listening to is the voice of God. In that place, His heart, His plans, His voice become so real it is almost like we become one. At those times, it feels like I pray with Him. When I am in that place, all I have to do is agree with God and partner with the things that are already on His heart. Those are the times when we pray together, and I begin to co-labor with God through my prayers. Those are the times where I begin to see real breakthrough, no agenda required.
This "Conversation on Discipleship" is part of a series of conversations that gathered modern-day Christian pioneers Jack Hayford, Loren Cunningham, Henry Blackaby, Lloyd Ogilvie, John Perkins and Winkie Pratney in one place. For more videos from Conversations With Fathers of the Faith and to find out more about each leader, visit fathersofthefaith.com.
Statistics prove that millions of Christians worldwide are leaving mainline denominations and adopting more charismatic/Pentecostal elements. How can a pastor help to guide these believers into a faith that’s both Spirit-filled and biblically grounded?
Most churches don’t take attendance and ask people where they come from when they first walk through their doors. If they did, they might be shocked and surprised to find that the rank-and-file charismatic church in America is no longer filled only with those who grew up in these kinds of churches. More and more our sanctuaries are being populated with Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, and the most recent newcomers—Catholics.
They are coming in large numbers in search of a God who’s real and a place where He’ll show up in a way they have never experienced before. They’ve found something genuine in our churches, something beyond just another great Bible-based sermon, and are sensing His presence as never before—and they can’t get enough.
But problems sometimes arise when these precious newcomers want to move from the pew to the service ranks, or from attendee to member or leader. Many of them get tripped up, cast off or disillusioned as they encounter the doctrine behind the movement—a doctrine that flies in the face of everything they’ve ever been taught or thought to be true about who God is and what He has to say about all the charismatic “stuff.”
It is critical that churches and church leaders be spiritually sensitive regarding these transplants because for some, there is more at stake than the loss of a great religious experience. Some have been baptized as babies or confirmed as children and believe their place in eternity is secure, yet they’ve never had a true salvation experience or asked the King of kings to come in and be their Savior and Lord.
So how do we help them? As I have studied this situation during the last several years I have found that there are two key issues that surface again and again. The first is salvation, and the second is anything related to the Spirit-filled life: baptism in the Holy Spirit, tongues, healing and even the lifting of hands in worship.
The first issue, salvation, is the most important and pressing. It is possible for a person to love God, worship Him and in some sense look like a Christian, while never acknowledging God’s Son, Jesus Christ. Such a person is just as lost as the one who has never darkened the door of a church. You must interact with newcomers to find out where they are on their spiritual journeys: Ask the hard questions, explain and teach.
Listen to see if they use the name of Jesus or if they want to talk only about their love of God. Never forget that there is just one name given under heaven by which a man or woman can be saved, and that is “Jesus.”
There are two catch-points built into most churches: your membership process and your volunteer orientation or assimilation process. I realize that not all churches encourage membership, but hopefully all of us are doing some kind of screening and training of our volunteers and lay leaders.
These processes provide great opportunities to ask the harder questions about salvation and determine whether the most important decision they will ever need to make has been made. If it has not, then you will be able to ensure that they make it right then and there.
At our church we have a training session prior to our baptism services to be certain that the people understand what is about to happen and that they have actually experienced salvation. We have led so many people to Christ in the class that was to prepare them for baptism! And these were folks who had previously responded to altar calls.
Regarding altar calls, remember this: The power of the Holy Spirit can be strong over the life of a person, but so can emotion and anointed worship. They come to our altars desperately needing change. We must give them Jesus.
The Spirit-Filled Life
Now for the second issue: anything related to the Spirit-filled life. This issue often trips up the folks who come from churches or denominations where they have been taught the Word of God, or at least parts of it, and who love what they experience at your church but lose their way a bit when it comes to your doctrine.
Here are the topics with which some will struggle: a second baptism, tongues, healing and being slain in the Spirit. But if you take a minute and break down each one of these topics from the Scriptures, you can dispel many fears, questions and concerns people have about them.
And here is what I have found to be true more often than not: Those who we believe are so staunchly against these cornerstones of the charismatic or Pentecostal movement are not as opposed to them as you might think. They just need to see evidence for them in the Scriptures. When you show seeking believers many of the passages I am about to give you, they will often be seeing these for the first time in their Christian experience, and they will be blown away—or better yet, set free.
A second baptism. Most refer to this as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Others call it a second filling or second experience subsequent and in addition to salvation. The basic premise is that while the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us at salvation (we are the temple of the Holy Spirit), there is a second filling and anointing when the Holy Spirit comes upon us and fills us with power from on high.
Take the disciples, for example: They had walked with Christ and had all the knowledge and belief they would ever need for salvation. Yet Jesus told them to go and wait for the baptism of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 1). On the day of Pentecost, they received this promised gift (see Acts 2), and afterward they went out and did many incredible things, as recorded in the remainder of the book of Acts.
Many other Scriptures make it clear that the Holy Spirit was given apart from salvation, and sometimes several days after salvation (see Acts 2:4; 8:14-25; 10:44; 15:8; 19:1-7). The most convincing passage for me is Acts 9, which details the conversion of Paul. Most Christians will agree that Paul’s conversion took place on the road to Damascus, yet Scripture makes it abundantly clear that Paul received the Holy Spirit days later at the laying on of hands by Ananias.
Tongues. There is perhaps no topic more controversial in the body of Christ than the subject of speaking in tongues. Why? There is probably no simple answer to that question, but the good news is that you do not need to provide a long-winded expository defense of tongues in the church. Simply take people to the description of what happened in the upper room in Acts 2, then show them Acts 10:44 and 19:1-7. Additionally, you can show them 1 Corinthians 14:2—or the clearest mandate I know for the gift of tongues: 1 Corinthians 12-13. You can end by showing them the verse that says, “Do not forbid to speak with tongues” (1 Cor. 14:39).
Healing. Most churchgoers believe that God has the ability to heal someone—after all, He is God. And most can testify of a time when someone they know was healed. They just have a hard time when they think a man or a woman is taking credit for being the healer. This issue is simple to resolve: Never take the credit, and never exalt a man or a woman. Talk about the gift and even the process, but always give the credit to God and you’ll see this objection fade away.
Slain in the Spirit. This manifestation definitely raises the skeptical eyebrow of the newcomer—not so much because people fall over backward, but because they can easily come to one conclusion: The person falling over is faking it. I have actually had a person from a non-charismatic denomination tell me that people are either faking it or a spirit other than God is causing it. Often their judgment is the result of having had hands laid on them and seeing nothing happen.
This is also an easy issue to resolve, but not without instruction, explanation and mentoring. Show the skeptic all the places in the Bible that are accounts of a person encountering an angel or the angel of the Lord, and they’ll see the result is nearly always the same, whether in the Old Testament or the New Testament: The biblical character falls straight to the ground. So why would the result not be the same today when a person encounters the living God in the form of the Holy Spirit?
The Point of No Return
All the arguments mentioned above can be proved in one passage of Scripture. But first the setup: You will not find an evangelical from any denomination who does not believe and teach the Great Commission found in Matthew 28:18-20:
“And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’”
But I have found many non-charismatic Christians who are shocked to find that there is a second version—a different telling by a different eyewitness to the same command—found in Mark 16:15:
“And He said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover’” (emphasis added).
The bottom line is that we have to teach, being ever conscious that there are those in our midst who are seeing and experiencing things they have never seen or experienced themselves and have been led to believe are fake—nothing more than emotionalism. And we also have to remember that many of these precious folks have crossed over a line of no return. They have been disowned by family and friends just for associating with charismatics and Pentecostals, let alone for attending your church.
Just ask any former Catholic or Baptist believer. A president of a well-known mission agency once disclosed in a magazine interview that while he was on the mission field, he prayed in another tongue. A week later, the organization asked for his resignation.
Unless we simply do not care about bringing newcomers into our midst, and unless we have become so selfish that we actually enjoy considering ourselves better than the rest—more enlightened, or as possessing something that only a chosen few can have—then we must always teach, explain, mentor and show the scriptural reasons and mandates for who we are, what we are and why we do what we do. To do less borders on either naiveté or spiritual arrogance.
They will know we are Christians by our love, and they will know we are charismatics by our exercising of the gifts—but they will judge our character by our fruit. And remember: Gifts without the fruit and without the love—well, you know the rest of that passage.
We’ve had enough gongs and clanging symbols for one generation. Let’s be salt and light and tour guides into the world of the supernatural, knowing all the while that the supernatural God we serve loves all His children and desires for all of them to receive His gifts.
Rich Rogers is the campus pastor of Free Chapel Worship Center in Irvine, Calif.